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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 14:48:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Pan Crastus
There is one very simple solution for this and it has been proposed again and again in the past few years:
Remove the frickin' insurance payouts for losses to CONCORD. It's extremely stupid to be able to suicide gank people in >=0.5 and get more insurance payout than the ship + fittings cost you.
Agreed.
If people want to suicide gank in hi sec then fine but the economics should be that the gank always costs more than the ship getting ganked. Currently I believe a freighter can be suicide ganked for around 400 million in losses to the attackers. That is versus a 1+ billion ISK ship.
When people gripe about Motherships being near unkillable the PvPers usual retort is that a 25 billion ISK ship should be super hard to kill. Fair enough and while 25 billion is a lot more than 1 billion the same idea should apply.
So, either stop insurance payouts for deaths by CONCORD or increase the hitpoints of a freighter such that in order to instakill them costs the attackers more than the value of their target (this should be true for any suicide gank be it a shuttle on up).
If the freighter is carrying enough of value in its cargo a suicide gank might still be worthwhile but the bar should be raised on whether or not it is worth it.
Someone earlier mentioned it was somehow silly to carry cargo worth over a billion. Well, it's a freaking freighter...it is supposed to carry HUGE amounts of cargo and getting a cargo worth over 1 billion ISK is trvially easy. To keep your cargo value below 1 billion is to essentially nerf the usefulness of the freighter.
One of the protections freighters had till recently was not only did you need a large attacking force to kill one you needed an army of haulers to carry the loot away. Now freighters can magically loot freighter wrecks (but nothing else  ) so again the bar is lowered. I was actually hoping for a story of a freighter gank in Jita (before freighters could loot) and hear of the dogpile of people going after the freighter wreck.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 14:55:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Kahor
Edited by: Kahor on 29/04/2007 14:37:01
You need only one scout to warn you of the odds 20 dominix standing at the next gate, don't be a tool.
You can also use that same scout to web yourself and warp faster.
Both are easily coped with by the attackers.
20 Domis need not be on the gate advertising themselves. They can be a few hundred kilometers off an off grid. Leave a few players in shuttles or fast frigs by the gate. Bump freighter (stupidly easy on a freighter) forever till attacking force warps in on you.
As for the web trick the freighter still needs to be aligned for that to work and they align painfully slowly. With the above tactic it is a simple matter to hold the freighter right where it is. I suppose we could go back to BMing empire for fast warpout points from every gate but even then you could be bumped out of alignment before your webber gets to you (luck of the draw I guess on whether the webber or bumper is closer to you when the freighter decloaks).
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 15:31:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 15:28:03
Originally by: Ki An
Until recently noone thought anyone would ever suicide a freighter as the cost would be too high. Now we have found out that the rewards are potentially exponential as people fly around with insane sums in their cargo. The solution to the problem is already in the freighter pilot's hands.
The answer is do not use the freighter to do what it is meant to do?
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The "PvPers"? I would consider myself a "PvPer" and I hate the fact that motherships are nigh unkillable. Still, it's probably down to my own inadequacies, as several moms have, in fact, been killed. Now, the titan is another story.
Titans were being dropped before the first Mom ever bit the dust. Not sure on the current count but it is close. Not many Moms or Titans have gone down. Both are stupidly hard to kill (I agree they should be very hard to kill but when the only reliable means of getting one is to resort to metagaming that is messed up).
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"Remove insurance" has been shouted for ages, and the couter arguments never seem to disuade the shouters. Things like "accidental death by concord during smartbomb activation in mission", and "overview in mess when shooting WTs in Empire leading to concord wtfbbqing you" seems to not be enough for the "my freighter should be safe in high-sec" crowd.
"Safe" in hi sec is a relative term. I am aware and agree that no place is 100% safe. But they certainly should be safer.
Smartbombs in Empire have never been a good idea since, well, forever. You are asking for it if you fit and use them there and can hardly complain when CONCORD nabs you.
Overview is a mess? Fix your overview. The answer lies in the attackers hands. Not to mention you should get a warning before attacking an innocent bystander. If you turned that off its your fault.
Sure the occasional person will goof and get CONCORDED. But the rules are clear, mechanics exist to help prevent that (warnings you are about to shoot someone you shouldn't) so I find it difficult to see how this is a useful argument.
Fact is from any reasonable perspective we all know that collecting insurance after committing a crime is just retarded. If you use your car in a bank robbery and the police smash your car chasing you do you really think your insurance company will payout on that car? (I can guarantee you the answer is no)
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Increasing HPs? You mean they don't have enough? It's simple math really. Say you need 30 domis to take down a freighter in high sec. Those 30 domis with t1 gear would go for, lets say, 40 mil each after insurance. That means it costs 30 x 40 = 1.2 billion to take down a freighter (NOTE: These are not actual figures, but an example). That would mean that you, the freighter pilot, have a cap of around 2 bil which you can put in your freighter and not risk suicide ganking for profit. About half the loot gets destroyed after all. Or, you can just use a scout.
Actual current math has the number required at around 20-25 Domis and after insurance payout the cost is 300-500 million ISK for the attackers (obviously some variability in there). Hence the current magic number is 1 billion in loot in the freighter which I pointed out is trivially easy to do in a freighter. Not talking about moving 100 billion+ ISK worth of T2 bpos or 900,000 m3 of mega. This is just doing what the freighter is meant to do with rather mundane cargo.
And I already pointed out the scout is easily sidestepped by gankers with half a brain.
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The answer is simple. Learn to play.
It is not a question of learning to play. It is a question of either giving appropriate tools to properly guard a freighter versus a suicide gank or, barring that, adjusting the profit calculation a bit to make suicide gankers be more choosey on who they go after.
If a freighter pilot wants to slow boat 900,000 m3 of megacyte AFK through Empire well...they have it coming.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 18:47:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ki An
AFAIK the only freighters that have been suicide ganked thus far where done before the loot patch. These people are just freaking out because their afk isk-machine might have run into a small snag.
There have indeed been suicide ganks since the patch. And at least one I know of that failed to pop the freighter.
As for freaking out about AFK ISK machines can you point to one post here that makes that case or even implies it?
I think most if not all here are fine with suicide ganks but merely want the risk v. reward ratio to make some better sense than it does now.
That or find a way to allow for proper escorts to do their job. Webbing frigs are dicey at best. ECM bursting/smartbombing battleships will probably save the freighter but likely at the cost of the battleship and a sec hit (possibly a steep one) to the defender. Does that seem in any way right to you? That's about the extent of the options and none of them good. Forget AFK pilots...what about the people who WANT to do it right and properly escort their freighters? Why shouldn't they have a fair shot at doing that?
A billion ISK ship with NO module slots! Silly to say it is unbalancing. Even an 8 slot nano freighter would still be horribly slow but if you want to forbid that mod to freighters fine. Why not give them SOME fitting ability to try and defend themselves.
Oh yeah, no remote hull repairers either. IIRC a freighter down to 10% hull will cost 300 mil to repair. That make sense or seem right?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 18:50:00 -
[5]
Originally by: SiJira
how about flying three freighters in a group ? no one is going to get a force big enough to take all 3 of them down !
Not sure how you think that would help. Gankers just pick one freighter and pop it. Other two go free. Gankers will of course know what they are carrying and pop the juiciest target.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 19:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
What harm could 0/3/3 hi/med/low do?
Simple: capital ships in empire. Freighter + cargo expanders = enough cargo space to fit repackaged capital ships. Give freighters slots and you might as well just allow cynos in empire and skip the whole middle step.
Unless of course you'd be willing to accept a significant cargo space nerf to get your slots?
How are packaged cap ships in Empire messed up? Not like you can fly them there. So what if they get transported through?
Even if that is somehow a bad idea (don't see why but for the sake of argument will go with it) merely up the size of a packaged cap ship or just prohibit them being loaded into freighters.
Or prohibit expanders on freighters. While using an expander on a freighter seems kinda cool they are big enough so no loss there. People want mod slots to be able to (possibly) defend themselves and their billion ISK ship to at least some extent.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 19:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kahor
Use scanner or local to find the odd 20 dominix probably from same corp ?
It's harder than you think to bump a freighter with a small ship, it might slow the align for maybe 5 sec, and that's it.
Since your scout is one jump ahead, and warp way faster than the freighter (and speed in warp is way higher too), the scout (with a MWD fitted) will be on the gate, and only 2km away from webbing the freighter.
It's surprisingly fast to align with a freighter, the problem come from the speed, and is resolved by a web. I know it because I've done it.
You can bump with anything. If a small ship does not suffice a few Phoons could do the trick. Whatever. A little practice and you can keep a ship like a freighter from warping indefinitely.
I've also done the web thing and while helpful it is not a sure thing to survive a suicide gank. Don't forget they will be scramming you too. While CONCORD will jam them and stop that they can hold you long enough. The video I saw on a suicide gank of a freighter the freighter went down in 12 seconds. Heck, have a few people in newbie frig with a scram on them added to your gang. Have them cycle a scram once each second on the freighter. Lag and CONCORD response time will not prevent the freighter from being scrammed till it is dead.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 20:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ki An
Oh, I must have been sleeping on my forum whoring job. I would have thought such a feat would generate gazillions of chest beatings and whines. Could you point me to a thread about such a gank so that I may gloat?
How often do people post about any gank? I have to get a mate to give me the link to an image from a Red (forget) gank perhaps three days ago or so. CONCORD all over. I have also run by a few in local with a zillion CONCORD and people in local chattering about it (once was near Agil, another was by...forget...Rens maybe). I doubt I a ran across the only instances of this happening.
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
As for freaking out about AFK ISK machines can you point to one post here that makes that case or even implies it?
I'm hardly the one freaking out here. This all seems like much ado about nothing to me.
I did not ask if you were freaking out. I asked you to point to the place where people whined about getting their AFK ISK printing machines back (which was your words).
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
I think most if not all here are fine with suicide ganks but merely want the risk v. reward ratio to make some better sense than it does now.
The risk you run is losing 20 BS for not enough loot. Then you have the problem with all the loot thieves who can just walse up to your kill and ransack it for any valuable loot. Risk vs Reward is fine.
The suicide gankers are not risking not getting enough loot. They know precisely what the freighter has and if it is worth getting. As for people dogpiling on the can the gankers will have an empty freighter there to take the loot. A few people might nab some but they will get the bulk of it.
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Damn right, that seems right to me. You've got 20 guys all losing their ships as well as sec status for your one guy. That is not to mention the fact that if anyone tries to loot the freighter wreck after it's been destroyed, you can be there in your shiney BS and shoot the crap outta him. He's stealing from your wreck after all. It's yours. You can kill anyone taking anything from the wreck!
The 20 guys are taking a minor sec status hit for a huge payday. That is THEIR choice. The defender if he smartbombs may pod who knows how many innocents in defense of the freighter and NOT by his choice. Huge difference there.
I can kill anyone looting my wreck from my pod that I am now in?
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
That's about the extent of the options and none of them good. Forget AFK pilots...what about the people who WANT to do it right and properly escort their freighters? Why shouldn't they have a fair shot at doing that?
They have a fair shot. Problem is they are lazy and/or stupid.
I explicitly stated what about the people who are not lazy or stupid and who really do want to go to the effort of properly guarding a freighter?
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
A billion ISK ship with NO module slots! Silly to say it is unbalancing. Even an 8 slot nano freighter would still be horribly slow but if you want to forbid that mod to freighters fine. Why not give them SOME fitting ability to try and defend themselves.
They have a friggin huge cargo space in exchange for the slots. A freighter is a flying warehouse. You ever seen a warehouse defend itself?
Sure...station guns.
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Oh yeah, no remote hull repairers either. IIRC a freighter down to 10% hull will cost 300 mil to repair.
With enough reppers you could probably do it, but that would mean putting as much effort in as the gankers, and that's just too much, isn't it?
Missed the point again. There are NO remote hull reps in game. And I am not on about hull tanking. If the freighter survives the gank and has considerable hull damage the ONLY way repair it is pay the station repair bill
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 20:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Evil Thug
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Kali is for KArebearLIng.
Waaa, waaa ? Its impossible to use scouts, it seems.
This has been answered. It is trivially easy for the gankers to stay out of sight rather than advertise themselves sitting atop a gate.
Use a scanner to find them? That'll work real well in Jita with 500+ people in system at any given time.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 20:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Evil Thug
Yes, its very hard to spot 20 dominixes on scaner, isn`t it ? Most Jita inhabitants flying domis, it seems.
500+ people in Jita (and omany other systems have hundreds) and you think it would be odd to see 20 Domis in the list?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 20:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 20:37:32
Originally by: Ki An
People would post about a freighter suicide gank, simply because people posted about the two suicide ganks that happened before the patch. Without any proof this is just another "I heard someone who heard someone who might have seen it".
I said I would link a pic as soon as my mate comes on (if he has the link still). This is all post patch (last week or so). Till then I can't provide more.
[quoteThis whole thread is about freighters not being safe isk printing machines due to suicide gank. I can give you the link to this thread if you want. Here.
No it is not. Most of the thread is asking for reasonable options to make suicide ganking freighters to have their risk v. reward ratios sorted and/or provide for meaningful defense mechanisms. Point to the post in this thread again where someone complained about not being able to be AFK safely with a zillion in cargo on board.
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They risk the loot getting blown up ya know. The loot won't distribute 50/50 in terms of value. If the loot is in containers theres a fair chance most of it will blow.
I never knew how the game determines loot drops with regard to cans. You are saying if 50% of my hold is filled with can of trit and the other 50% of my hold is filled with cans filled with megacyte there is a chance only the trit will drop? Seems a possibility I suppose but I am guessing a full freighter will drop near 50% of the cargo and random distribution should equate to roughly 50% of the overall value. Of course I suppose someone could get colossaly unlucky. Then again I doubt the gank will happen on the thin edge of profitability. More likely they will go for something with several billion in cargo and whatever happens they will make money.
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
The 20 guys are taking a minor sec status hit for a huge payday. That is THEIR choice. The defender if he smartbombs may pod who knows how many innocents in defense of the freighter and NOT by his choice. Huge difference there.
No. No difference. It's your choice to defend yourself.
Now that is absurd. Most anywhere I can think of would say you defending your property from attackers/looters is not the same choice as the attackers/looters choosing to attack you.
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
I can kill anyone looting my wreck from my pod that I am now in?
Ffs, you can't be this stupid. Anyone from the same corp as you can kill anyone that loots the wreck. We keep telling you to bring friends.
I have asked several times about that very question and never got a definitive answer as to who obtains a kill flag. If it is as you say then good.
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Seems to me you fall under the lazy/stupid cathegory as the people you speak of are able to protect their freighter/loot.
Maybe I am. What about the people who are not?
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Sure...station guns.
Never seen a warehouse with guns myself. You live in the bad part of town?
You really think warehouses do not have guards? In war they do not put flak batteries around such places? Hell, they put guns on WWII cargo vessles. Maybe not much use but doing it is simple enough.
Off track though. Not talking about arming the freighter. Talking about improving its defensive capabilities.
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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Missed the point again. There are NO remote hull reps in game.
So? You take damage, and you may lose the profit from that run, but if you save your ship you can fly again another day.
So, by that you would be ok with removing hull reppers from the game? You said you PvP. You will be happy with saving your ship and footing the repair bill? Why would you be opposed to remote repping a hull? Not like it is close to a good way to tank.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 20:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki
By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter.
Not even close.
Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS.
The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 21:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kahor
Find me a screenshot where you can see 20+ odd dominix on 360 scanner from a gate in Jita, and I'll consider the fact that Jita might not be safe for freighters...
What is max scanner range (I forget)? Seems simple enough to stay outside that.
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The rest of you too lazy to click two buttons with your mouse when you scout might as well take the loss and learn from it.
With the current nerf to speed mod I am not even sure a typhoon can align, and get from 0km to its max speed and bump the freighter that is 12/14 km away before it warps.
And if it does,
-and the ganksquad managed to land from the warp initiated out of scanning range (remember you have a scout and you scanned) before your freighter is out,
-and all the members of that ganksquad are not all asleep from staying hours in a SS in empire to gank a possible worthy freighter.
-Kill the freighter without missing him (I am pretty sure if the freighter is not afk, and keep pressing warp toward something he is aligned to and is not getting bumped again, it will warp off, probably in structure, when all the hostile dominix are jammed)
-And the ganksquad also have a hauling squad which must be different chars than the one that shooted the freighter.
-And that hauling squad didn't fall asleep either.
- You do not need a Phoon to bump. Or at least start with some speedy frigs and then hit with battleships. Nothing can be done to stop them and they can be totally effective. Hell, the gank squad could be docked or in another system. Bumping is a tactic CCP Devs even said to use to get Moms/Titans. Bumping freighters is just as easy and effective.
- Warp gank squad on to bumpers. Unleash drones. Have at it.
- Nearby freighter working for gank squad should be slowboating to target freighter all the while. By the time it is all said and done he should be there to scoop loot.
No question it takes organisation and is not brain dead simple but it is not that hard either and the payday can be significant.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 21:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki
By using destroyers or higher with remote armor reps and/or shield transfers, you can effectively protect the freighter.
Not even close.
Last time I went around on this I figured the suicide gank that made so much forum news applied 12,500 DPS to the freighter (real DPS, after resists and such). Probably more actually but let's go with 12,500 DPS.
The logisitics ships required to defend against that would be staggering.
1 BS with 8 large remote reps do 4160 ap/8 secs. having say 5 BSs would do more then required at 20800 ap/8 secs. Through in 1 or 2 BSs rigged for shield transfer and u get ur prod home safely. Now that's using less ships to protect then what it takes to take down a freighter.
Still won't do it likely.
In the freighter gank video they dropped the freighter in 12 seconds. By the time your armor reppers hit they are well into hull. Your 20,800 points of armor would be burned off in less than 2 seconds. Most you have done is extend the freighter's life from 12 seconds to maybe 14-15 seconds. Watching the vid I think that would not have made a difference at all. Still a dead freighter.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 21:29:00 -
[15]
Originally by: aiaakii
Another option is to make Freight Cans unscannable,so that it is a total gamble as to what the suicide squad might get. Not only are you suiciding but you might be doing it for 900k/m3 of livestock..
Nah...this would make freighters essentially non-gankable. You could do it of course but who would? Way too expensive to try without knowledge that there is a good payday at the end of it (unless it is a revenge kill).
Although perhaps making it so a pilot knows when he is cargo scanned would be cool. At least give you an idea someone is taking an interest in you.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 21:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sojuro Ryosaki
All ya need is 1 rep cycle for the freighter to get out.
Trying to find the link for the freighter gank video. Adding 20,000 HP in one cycle (which is all you would get) almost certianly would not have saved it.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 21:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 29/04/2007 21:55:14
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Mind you, that vid may well have been sped up. Most EVE vids are.
Here's the link to the freighter gank video. In the video he starts taking damage at timestamp 3:01 and is dead at timestamp 3:13.
I'll leave it to you to decide if that was sped up.
EDIT: My bad. I was watching the target disappear off of target lock. Guy was jammed. Looks like freighter died at timestamp 3:33 so 32 seconds. Big difference I admit. Around 5,312 DPS overall although that is just average DPS. The repping figures given above would make a difference I think. Hard to say...that freighter got hammered.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.29 22:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gamesguy
4700 DPS modified by the 35% thermal resists on armor gives us 3k DPS, 4 BS with 8 large remote armor reps can outrepair that, realistically you only need like 2 BS since concord would kill the domis b4 your ft dies.
In conclusion, in the end, this thread is a whole lot of bull**** about nothing, typical whine thread.
No, its 4,700 real DPS (on average). Just took total HP divide by time to kill. They were doing more than 4700 to account for resists.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.30 03:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel
Add passowrd set option for general freight cans just like noraml haulers can carry giant secure cans with passwords that kinda renders it usless unless the freighter pilot is careless not to use freighter cans or forgets to set a password which still adds a possebility for profit.
Not sure I follow.
Secure cans with passwords are no guard against looters. They still get your stuff (password does not prevent them accessing the can).
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.04.30 23:07:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/04/2007 23:03:39
Originally by: Wyehr
I'm sick of the 12 second thing. It took at least 33 seconds to pop the freighter in Outbreak's Karma video.
Need to read the thread more closely. On page 4, post #104 I already admitted I got that wrong and corrected myself to the 33 seconds it took.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 17:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ki An
It's a proactive defense though, isn't it? I mean, you are free to not scout ahead, but then you can't really whine about being suicide ganked.
As has been mentioned many times in this thread there are a number of ways suicide gankers can hide from a scout and still pull off the gank. In fact if the gankers have half a brain that is precisely what they will do rather than advertise themselves sitting on a gate with 20 Domis.
As for the contention that the gankers risk 400 mil in losses that glosses over the reality. Yes it is 400 mil in total losses but more like 20-25 mil per individual pilot. Not a nice loss but hardly critical.
Compare that to the freighter pilot who is losing a 1+ billion ISK ship. Helluva difference and where risk/reward gets bolloxed up. That is not even counting the cargo. If the gank fails the freighter pilot can easily face a 300 million ISK repair bill because there is no way to repair a freighter's hull except paying a station to do it.
Cap ship PvP pilots frequently make the case that for the multi-billion investment their ship should be exceedingly difficult to kill. Apparently when the ship is a carebear ship that notion goes out the window.
Also, for the idea that the gankers risk not getting any cargo (or crap loot) because of a chance it gets blown up why do you forget that the freighter pilot just lost their cargo? Likely all of it too (chances are poor they will recover anything left in the wreck). Why is this a risk the ganker takes but not an issue for the freighter that lost a billion in ship plus who knows how much cargo? Remember there are two sides to this coin, two sides that suffer loss.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 17:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Sorry, but your full of it friend.
1: High sec. will hardly be less secure than low sec.
2: here are few (if any) fools flying unescorted freighters around 0.0
3: No matter where you are, you never ever take a load valuable enough to justify a suicide gank without taking suitable precautions... I don't care what you are flying. Whether those precautions consist of experienced scouts out in front, or armor/shield boosting ships along side. 0.0 alliances learned this simple fact long ago and use appropriate teamwork in systems of all security levels. That little tidbit is often the main difference between 0.0 corps/alliances and your archtypical "carebear" corp/alliance... that "why should I have to take precautions or work WITH my corp mates" attitude.
I've done 0.0 runs and indeed a freighter should NEVER go below 0.5 without a hefty escort. Of course you know the cargo ship of choice in 0.0 is now a carrier, not a freighter. Those times when a freighter is used are relatively few and far between. Generally a massive haul is organized with several freighters and a massive escort fleet. Done once a month or so no biggie and even kind of fun.
What you are missing is the volumes of goods that need to be moved around Empire are FAR higher than needed in 0.0. Ever try running a serious production line? One of the most difficult aspects (or at least time consuming) is maintaining a supply of mats for its operation. It is a near constant effort. Expecting to find 5+ mates to guard your ship day-in and day-out is very difficult...even for massive industrial corps.
As for not putting enough material in cargo on a freighter to keep it below ganking profitability is terrible. It is trivially easy to cross that threshold with a hold full of most anything beyond Tritanium. You are essentially saying do not use a freighter for its intended purpose.
I do not understand the PvPers hatred of "carebears". I'd be curious to know how many of these PvPers who ooze sarcasm have flown a freighter. Not just flown one but had to fly one daily for weeks. A freighter they themselves dropped their own 1 billion ISK on and then emptied their wallet of another 2 billion for a cargo run. Freighters were not AFK ISK printing machines. They are a tool. Carebears often put in a great deal of work to be traders or builders. The moving stuff around part is just the mechanics...the effort comes before you ever fill the cargo hold and I'll stack up their effort at playing EVE against a Mothership camping a low sec gate and smartbombing shuttles anyday.
And once again with the socut thing...they are easily bypassed by a semi-savvy gank group.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:19:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The problem isn't that freighters can be killed, the problem is that they can't be defended.
Would remote repping not work?
Apparently it's too much of an effort.
/Ki
Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks.
Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ki An
Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region?
Same reason merchants IRL life congreate in malls and downtown areas. Sure you could open a shop in the boonies and get some sales but you will get FAR more sales at the trade hub. When margins are low it is all about volume.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Drop 1.1 billion on a freighter. Put 2 billion in cargo in it and make a 20j run. Then do that daily for two weeks.
Get back to me on how often you pull together 5+ mates to guard you.
You go ahead and do it without taking any security measures, and then get back to us and tell us how many times you where suicide ganked.
/Ki
Nice dodge.
You are suggesting that 5+ guard squads are a simple matter and implying freighter pilots are just too lazy to be bothered. I am merely pointing out that before you make claims you should try it yourself.
As for me getting ganked you are correct that MOST times I won't. But with 3+ billion on the line (mnost of which is not insurable) it really only takes once to screw me over in EVE for months. Perhaps you are wealthy enough to shrug off a 3 billion total loss but I am not.
It's like playing Russian Roulette. Even if there was only a 1:100 chance of you getting "unlucky" would you play?
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/05/2007 18:23:25
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Ki An
Couldn't you just sell them outside the trade hub, but in the same region?
Same reason merchants IRL life congreate in malls and downtown areas. Sure you could open a shop in the boonies and get some sales but you will get FAR more sales at the trade hub. When margins are low it is all about volume.
But is this reason enough to exempt you from risk in a game where anything goes? I am definitely pro isk sink, ie,, there needs to be many more ways to slow the isk making in Eve than there are currently, invention was a start but the Eveconomy is still in trouble.
I totally agree that this should NOT exempt anyone from risk. While I am not a big fan of suicide ganks I accept them.
I am NOT arguing for invulnerable freighters and frankly they should drop their loot. I merely want some reasonable methods to look after their safety. Note "reasonable". While definitely subjective and open to debate I disagree that 5 battleship guards to take a freighter everywhere it goes as reasonable.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: trouser boy
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose?
Oh, I'd survive as a player losing my ship and cargo like that but it would sting something fierce. The ship loss I could manage (suck but manage). The uninsured cargo is a lot more difficult. I'd get by and keep going but it would definitely throw a serious wrench in things.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Ranger 1
They wouldn't have to go everywhere the freighter goes, only into high risk area's (or area's that a scout has determined to be high risk).
Perhaps your corp is arranged such that you only do hauls in a given region and most of your mates hang in that region too. In my quest for mats I drive all over the universe. These long hauls are still useful due to the freighter's capacity. I simply do not have enough mates scattered far and wide to call in a guard cover for a few jumps easily. Mostly they have to make the majority of the trip with me.
And a 2 billion in cargo freighter could be enough for a suicide gank. That's 600 million in profit for the squad or around 30 mil (give or take) for each member. Not a super huge payday but I could see if they were at the end of their camp with not got anything better yet the freighter with 2 billion in it could be enough.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.01 18:49:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jonathan Xavier
The reason I maintain that remote repping is not a viable counter is because people suggested that a BS with 8 remote reps can mitigate 5 Domi's damage. The problem with that is that a BS can't sustain that kind of rep. Instead you'd need a fleet of 20-40 BSs with 1-2 remote reppers each or a smaller number with 3 (if the cap use makes sense). The point myself and others has been making is that it is unreasonable to force freighter pilots to assemble a fleet that size to simply undock in Jita, Hek or Rens.
People also need to consider that freighter ganking can be done for reasons other than personal profit. If an enemy decided to start take down an empty empty freighter, they would inflict 600M isk worth of net financial damage.
Someone more savvy in the math of remote reppers and resists and all will have to weigh in with actual numbers but I think the notion is the remote repping battleships need only lay down 1-2 cycles to let the freighter live. Presumably CONCORD is wasting the attackers so you just need to nurse the freighter for a little bit.
Of course the freighter will come out battered as hell and face a sizeable repair bill likely which frankly stinks. (I still totally fail to see why remote hull reps are not in game)
Again, I am not good at all the math involved to say where the line is drawn to manage to let a freighter survive but some here have suggested 5 battleships with 8 remote reps each could pull it off versus 20 Domis. Also have to wonder how long the drones keep at it (with lag and such)
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.02 23:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Beffanie
hehe, I guess you missed the pages that *almost* explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts.
If you are refferring to using lots of domis with heavy drones - which in the end really is the only way to kill freighters in highsec since concord jamms you quick - all you need is one BS with a full rack of large smartbombs as escort.
While the SBs would probably work there is a very good chance the guarding battleship will hit innocent bystanders (such as the bumpers trying to keep the freighter from warping) and will get CONCORDED himself. Add that the SBs may well pod those people so the guard will take a nasty sec hit.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.05.02 23:53:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Beffanie
hehe, I guess you missed the pages that *almost* explained how to gank a freighter regardless of escorts.
If you are refferring to using lots of domis with heavy drones - which in the end really is the only way to kill freighters in highsec since concord jamms you quick - all you need is one BS with a full rack of large smartbombs as escort.
While the SBs would probably work there is a very good chance the guarding battleship will hit innocent bystanders (such as the bumpers trying to keep the freighter from warping) and will get CONCORDED himself. Add that the SBs may well pod those people so the guard will take a nasty sec hit.
ECM burst, once the domis are jammed 1 blackbird with ecm bursts can break locks on most of the drones, and the drones will only reagro on the blackbird, since the ft has no offensive modules.
Repping battleships work as well.
You can only have one ECM burst active now with a recent patch (or so I was led to understand...haven't tried myself) so unsure how effective that might be. ECM burst will also get the BB CONCORDED probably but not such a big loss. Pilot will also probably take a sec hit but not as badly as an SBing battleship that pods people.
Remote repping seems it may work if you can drag 5+ mates along who have all remote reps fitted in hi. As has been discussed that is a lot to ask for to follow your freighter around constantly. Certainly worth it for a massively valuable cargo but every time the thing moves?
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